Beppe Grillo in black
I tried to talk about working incenerators and incenerator technology development in the Italian version of the Grillo post “See Brescia and Die“. But Beppe didn’t like my comment for some reason.
The Daily Owl-blogger discovered the disappearal. I really feel flattered. But Beppe Grillo seems not to be open for dialogues. If you are able to read Italian read the article “Piovono rane” (Frogs are raining) on l’Espresso written by Alessandro Giglioli. Well, my comment being refused, I thought maybe it was more accepted in the English version of the Grillo blog, were most Italians are not able to read.
The Terni-incenerator scandal is not an example of incenerator technology. That is an example of criminal administration. And about the incenerator in Brescia I can’t argue.
But I live near an incenerator and want to tell that the incenerator technology has developed quite a lot. You can see by the photos in my previous post the luxury “acceptance” of this plant. As the previous commenter, Andrea Ceccanti said, it is not the best good solution to burn wastes. But what are the alternatives?
Andrea Ceccanti said this in his intresting comment in “Sea Brescia and die“:
As far as the energy calculation is concerned I totally agree with you that an incinerator is inefficient. However, please do not forget that the incinerator is supposed to reduce the volume of waste and not producing energy. Energy production is a job for power plants and sometime they are not efficient either. However, having an incinerator that can produce some energy is a clear advantage.
From the pollution point of view, incinerators represent an unfortunate choice for our environment and ourselves. Unfortunately, the alternative to incinerators is a rubbish dump that has its own problems as well. In any case an incinerator could provide a reasonable mean of waste disposal if combined with a separate waste collection. In actual fact the environmental impact of burning paper, wood, non-synthetic clothes, kitchen waste and cardboard is minimal and surely lower than the million of cars that roam Italian roads every day.
The process becomes dangerous when burning plastics (especially PVC), plastic bags, plastic wrapping, certain type of rubber (like those of electric cables) and many other man made products that combined with oxygen produce Dioxin. The open battle against incinerators is important but dramatically fails to provide a short term solution. The average family produces at least a couple of bags of rubbish a week. What are we going to do with the resulting 40 million bags of rubbish a week? Talking about separate collection and recycling is fine but how many Italians will separate and recycle? Probably the same percentage of the Italian drivers that drive carefully…
A Swedish environmental group, Naturskyddsföreningen, cooperating with Greenpeace, talks about 5 problems with incinerators. One of these is about the environmental impact, among others, the fact that the biggest part of dioxine, with the new air filtering techniques, are to be found in the ashes. The ashes should according to Greenpeace, be burried in stone galleries like radioactive materials.
Rob Whittle scrive:
Inserito il 17 Gennaio 2008 alle 5:52 amStellan
Here in the UK we have modern State of the Art EfW/CHP. At all 12 waste incinerators, goverment data has been mapped, and in all 12 cases infant mortality in downwind wards has been found to be 3x that of upwind wards. Search. Dr Dick van steenis or Michael Ryan and incinerators. PM2.5 to PM1 fine particles are the problem. The new incinerators produce a greater amount of these, rather than larger PM10s. In the permits it states that filter efficiency for PM2.5 is 65-70%, and only 10-30% for PM2.5 to PM1. US PM2.5 science, Lines that Connect Pope and Docherty prove in the NEJM journal that these these fine particles cause infant mortalities, asthma (regressed lung growth 12-18yr olds, heart disease / COPD and several other conditions, with no safe lower concentration level. US supreme court has fully scutinise the science and rules it absolutely sound in its 1.5 million cohort findings. One has also have to remember any incinerator derived PM2.5 particle is not the same as sahara PM2.5 dust, it can have 20-1000 toxic chemicals in it, metals, PAHs etc, with Gulf War DU like potential pathways in the human body via the lungs to the blood stream. Food for thought!
So incinerators might be sold as green, clean, safe; but they aren’t, and really a no brainer.
I can see why Beppe hates incinerators, and has little time for their prescritors or promoters. I’m the same.
The three viable best alternative technologies to incineration are:
Mechanical Biological Treatment with Anarobic Digestion MBT/AD
Plasma ArC Gasification
Mechanical Heat Treatment (also known as Steam Autoclaving), followed by Plasma Gasification of any residual fuel
apoli had one of the three types of technologies and facilities above, landfill, street dumping or the dilemas of incinerators would not be present. Problem dealt with!
Pia scrive:
Inserito il 17 Gennaio 2008 alle 1:25 pmHo letto con interesse il commento di Rob Whittle. E visionato il dossier di Dick van steenis or Michael Ryan. Ho continuato a navigare in rete e questo è il mio piccolo contributo (in italiano per fortuna). Non so quanto valido ma per aumentare dubbi…
http://www.ambientespa.it/informa/termovalorizzatori.htm
admin (subscriber) says:
Inserito il 17 Gennaio 2008 alle 7:32 pmThank you Rob for “fueling” the dialogue with good valuable information.
I must emphasize that I don’t “sell incinerators as green” but I put in question the dark data put up in the Grillo blog. The “Look at Brescia and die” post didn’t fit with my experience of incinerators. I have lived downwind about 14 years and I have lived near it, within 5 chilometers, 30 years now and I still live.
I have in fact never heard anyone talk about it. I asked today one of the villa owner near our incinerators if they were discussing the incinerator and yes, they did, but some 15 years ago before they made a major improvement to reduce the dioxin release in air.
It seems that there are no equivalent studies here in Sweden as the one in UK about mortality as otherwise I am sure these results would have appeared among others on the Swedish Greenpeace site. Greenpeace Sweden only argue that fine particles with dioxin are released. But I think that is enough as an argument against incinerators.
I don’t think incinerators is an option if there are ambientally better alternatives. You talk about three new technologies and I understand from your post, that these are industry standard already and ready to be built e.g. in Napoli.
Thank you Pia for the Italian table with pro and against.
Rob Whittle scrive:
Inserito il 18 Gennaio 2008 alle 11:29 pmHere’s the PM2.5 science and health conditions. “There are no safe lower threshold concentrations of PM2.5″ Dr CA Pope 2007 (World’s Leading air pollution expert)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3665914907157343039
http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/health/pm-mort/pope_2006_criticalreview.pdf
http://www.noaca.org/pmhealtheffects.pdf
http://www.ukhr.org/incineration/newhavenreport.htm vsteenis public enquiry report nov 2007
Stellen, hope the above make useful reference to where many researchers are coming from.
I received a reply from Greenpeace UK to say than sice 2002, Greenpeace has fallen behind in its campaigning and research with refence to modern incineration (they were mainly concerned with the then Dioxin/Furans issue that is greatly reduced), and had left incinerator campaigning to Friends of the Earth. FoE decided to camapaign mainly on the resource destruction, CO2 and energy issues, and didn’t have the ir pollution expertise to look at fine particulates. Personally I am interested in what Drs Antonetti Gatti and Stephan Montaneri ESEM microscope nano particle research will uncover in downwind residents of incineration, after finding combustion nano particle levels in food, and in Gulf and Balkan War Sydrome veterans organs.
Plasma Arc Gasification - http://www.plascoenergygroup.com/ FoE and Eunomia Consulting approved
Anarobic Digestion - http://www.greenfinch.co.uk/
MBT/AD - http://www.srm-norfolk.co.uk/theplant.html dry MBT/AD or http://arrowbio.com/ wet MBT/AD FoE approved
admin (subscriber) says:
Inserito il 20 Gennaio 2008 alle 1:22 pmThank you Rob. I think your comment and links are very useful so I prepare a separate post with your comment. Maybe we could have a comment dialogue out of that post?