- Word of God
- Paulus words
- Arguments against “the women keep silent”
Women leaders in NT
- Bible scripts Jesus did not accept
( Image source: noreligionblog.wordpress.com )
I am not a JW but I am attending JW (Jehowah witnesses) meetings as they are very helpful and talented in finding different parts of the Bible, even better than the catholic priests I talk with. And their jw app is a great tool for those who want to know more about what is written in the Bible.
As it looks like JW regard the whole BIble as the word of God. I asked therefore a Italian JW brother:
“Is the sentence of Paul
“let the women keep silent in the congregations”
a sentence/order made by God?
He couldn’t answer, tried to deviate, starting to talk about other parts of The Gospel. I asked again the same question asking him for a yes or no or I dont know, but invane.
A Witness sister had another approach telling me about other parts of Pauls letter where Pauls talked about women active in Rome (see the women leaders in my artile below). But that wasn’t a answer neither to my question. I made however, thanks to her, my own research both in NT and OT. I came to the conclusion that Paul with his sentence, contraddicted himself, the NT and OT. He had a blasphemic moment distracted by stress or the sentence was added later by others in the CAtholic church. I found a blog where Swedish Richard Cruz discusses this issue. His articles are the main sources of information I used in this article.
I think it it has no sense to discuss whhich are the Words of God without having any definition or criteria about what are “Words of God”.
Paul wrote wrote this about the Bible Timothy in Ephesos in 2Timothy 3:15-16
“All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching,for reproving, for setting things straight,* for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.”
- I find the same moral rules and principles in several holy books
This is the case of Jesus rules and the Buddhist 8- fold path to enlightment and the Zoroastrian Gathas Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds
- and the sentences follow Jesus rules (my ethical ground rules)
- Golden rule
- Loe your next, your enemie, your neighbor
- Do not count the times you forgive ( Mat 18:22 )
- never betray a confidence
“A talebearer reveals secrets, But he who is of a faithful spirit conceals a matter. ” ( Proverbs 11:13 NKJV )
- A rule is not contradictory to other parts of the same book
The word of God is discussed in noreligionblog.wordpress.com/
As a pluralist I am of course not a fundangelical, as is explained by www.extremelysmart.com
Only English texts are tanslated by this site translate button. Install a translate plugin on your broser to translate from Italian.
About texts from the Bible in this article. If you are reading Bible text sin this English vesion and using the Google translate option, you must know that the Google translation may not be a approved translation. We recommend you to open the approved text in your choosen language here in Biblia or here in jw.org.
|Parole di Paolo||Paulus words
| “le donne stiano in silenzio nelle congregazioni, perché a loro non è permesso parlare; piuttosto siano sottomesse, come dice anche la Legge. Se vogliono spiegazioni le chiedano al marito, a casa, perché è vergognoso per una donna parlare nella congregazione” ( Cor 14:34 )
Forse JW non le considerano come parole e ordini di Dio, poiché le donne JW possono parlare nella congregazione ma … non dirigono mai le assemblee.
In ogni caso, la sentenza “le donne stiano in silenzio ” va contro a Paolo stesso e la Bibbia
Leggi i penieri di Richard Cruz su questo verso.
|( 1 ) “let the women keep silent in the congregations, for it is not permitted for them to speak. Rather, let them be in subjection, as the Law also says. If they want to learn something, let them ask their husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the congregation” ( Cor 14:34 )
Maybe JW doesn’t regard these as words of and orders by God as JW women are allowed to speak in the congregation but …. they never lead the assemblies.
In any case, the sentence “women keep silent” goes against Paul himself and the Bible
Read the thoughts about this verse by
|questa è un’altra parte che difficilmente vedo come la parola di Dio. Come può l’aspetto dei capelli essere così importante? Nel Vaticano e nel Duomo di Milano, le donne non possono entrare senza coprire i capelli coperti. Ma gli uomini possono entrare anche con i capelli lunghi.
” ma ogni donna che prega o profetizza con il capo scoperto disonora il suo capo, perché è esattamente come se fosse rasata. Se dunque una donna non si copre il capo, si tagli i capelli; ma se per una donna è vergognoso tagliarsi i capelli o radersi, allora si copra. L’uomo non deve coprirsi il capo, visto che è immagine gloria di Dio, ma la donna è gloria dell’uomo.” ( Cor 11:5-7 )
Questo è semplicemente discriminatorio e ricorda alle persone musulmane che richiedono alle donne di coprirsi i capelli.
Le donne testimoni di Geová non si coprono mai i capelli alle adunanze. Quindi questi versi non sono parole di Geová/Dio ?
|this is another part that I hardly see as God’s word. How can the appearance of hair be that important for God?
In the Vatican and the Dome of Milan, women are not allowed to enter without covering the hair. But men can enter even with long hair.
These verses are according to me written by men who think they are superior to women.
The woman is man’s glory not Gods?
( 1 ) ” but every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered shames her head, for it is one and the same as if she were a woman with a shaved head. For if a woman does not cover herself, she should have her hair cut of but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or shaved, she should be covered. For a man should not have his head covered, as he is God’s image and glory, but the woman is man’s glory.” ( Cor 11:5-7 )
This reminds about the Muslim people that require women cover their hair. And woman as man’s glory? typically written by a man with no selfconfidence at all that has not learned that the last on Earth is first in Heaven. Paul, sometimes should men keep their mouth shot.
JW women seem not to follow this so these sentences may not be seen as words of God?
|Argomenti biblici contro
“le donne tacciano”
|Biblical arguments against
“the women keep silent”
|Se fosse eretico per le donne di parlare in congregazioni, Gesú non avrebbe chiesto a Maria di raccontare ciò che ha visto e che Gesù le ha detto, ai fratelli , come sta scritto in Giovanni 20:16-18
“Gesù la chiamò: “Maria!” Lei si voltò e in ebraico (aramaico?) gli rispose: “Rabbunì!”, che significa “maestro”. Gesù le disse: “Smetti di stringerti a me, perché non sono ancora asceso al Padre. Va’ dai miei fratelli e di’ loro che io ascendo al Padre mio+ e Padre vostro e all’Iddio mio e Iddio vostro”. E Maria Maddalena andò dai discepoli e annunciò: “Ho visto il Signore!” Dopodiché riferì loro ciò che Gesù le aveva detto”
|If it were heretical for women to speak in congregations, Jesus would not have asked Mary to tell what she saw and Jesus told her, to the brothers as is written in John 20:16-18 :
( 1 ) “She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”). Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”18 Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them that he had said these things to her.”
|In questo testo non si distingue fra donne e uomini:
“In questa condizione non c’è greco o giudeo, circonciso o incirconciso, straniero, scita schiavo, libero, ma Cristo è tutto ed è in tutti.
“Pertanto, quali eletti di Dio, santi e amati, rivestitevi di tenera compassione, benignità, umiltà, mitezza e pazienza. Continuate a sopportarvi gli uni gli altri e a perdonarvi senza riserve, anche se qualcuno ha motivo di lamentarsi di un altro. Proprio come Geova* vi ha perdonato senza riserve, così dovete fare anche voi.” ( Col 3:11-13 )
Le donne non devono tacere come si legge in questo verso di ( Salmi 68:11 ):
”Geova dà l’ordine. Le donne che proclamano la buona notizia sono un grande esercito.”
|In this text there is no distinction between women and men:
( 1 ) ” a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, a]barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.”
( 1 ) “So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.” ( Col 3:11 -13 )
”The Lord gives the command; The women who proclaim the good tidings are a great host”
| Women leaders in the early churh
I found very useful information in My translation from www.rickardcruz.seThree women followed Jesus and are mentioned several times in the Gospels. At one point it says that Jesus was with the twelve disciples – and these three women.Why there were only men among the twelve were probably because they traveled, lived, stayed overnight and went extremely close together for three years and that it had been very difficult to do that with a mixed group in that society.Translated from www.rickardcruz.seMary, Joanna and Susanna and many others( 1 ) ” After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him, and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out; Joanna the wife of Chuza, the manager of Herod’s household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means” ( Luke 8: 1-3 )Mary from Magdala
Mary fom Magdala had a life-changing encounter with Jesus when he liberated her from seven evil spirits. She became one of Jesus’ followers and sometimes traveled with him. She was just like the other disciples, following Jesus and received his teaching.
She was present at the two most important events in Jesus’ life: the crucifixion and the resurrection. She is mentioned at least twelve times in the four Gospels, which is more than most of the male disciples. Jesus chosed to allow Mary to be the first to prove himself in his resurrection as I wrote about above.He also sent her to be the first witness of the resurrection of the other disciples. This is contrary to the prevailing system in the Jewish society where women were not considered credible as witnesses.My translation from www.rickardcruz.seFillippus four unmarried daughters
We do not know their names or if they were considered prophets but they prophesied according to ( Acts 21:8-9 ):
( 1 ) “Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied.”
Febe – Co-worker of Paul who served the church in Kenkrea. We do not know which service / gift she had but that she was now traveling to Rome with Paul’s recommendations may very well suggest she was a traveling serviceman.
( 1 ) “I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.”
My translation from www.rickardcruz.se
Maria – Workers in the Assembly of Rome. She was a congregation worker and leader who had made a big difference to the church in Rome. (
“Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you. “ ( Romans 16: 6 )
My translation from www.rickardcruz.se
Junia – according to Paul, she was a highly regarded apostle. For centuries, the female apostle Junia has been the headache of the male church hierarchy. Many have tried to claim that Junia was actually a man but there is no proof of anything other than that she was actually a woman.
My translation from www.rickardcruz.se
Tryphena and Tryphosa
Their names make it likely that they were either slaves or former slaves. My translation from www.rickardcruz.se
Priska / Priscilla
“Greet Priscilla and (ed. Priscillas usband) Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus. They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them.”
Priska and her husband traveled and moved several times. In Ephesus, Corinth and Rome. Probably she and her husband served as the noblest / community leader. She and her husband met Apollos early in his service and taught him thoroughly. He is later referred to as an apostle. (Acts 18: 2-3, 18, 26, Romans 16: 3-4, 1 Corinthians 16:19, 2 Tim 4:19)
My translation from www.rickardcruz.se
Euodia and Syntyche
( 1 ) ” I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to be of the same mind in the Lord. Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life.” ( Phil 4: 2-3 )
Friends, Leaders and Employees of Paul in the Gospel Service in the Philippi Assembly.
My translation from www.rickardcruz.se
I discuss here a few parts that jesus did not accept and whose rules he changed triggering the wrath of the priests of his time.
Defeat your enemy and put aside the clothes of a pleasant women prisoners in your home and make her your wife?
These verses tell you how God will help you defeat your enemie and how a man can have sex with a attractive prisoner woman.
( 1 ) “When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her” ( deuteronomy 21:10-14 )
What Jesus said years later
(You heard that it was said: ‘You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy. However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you,” ( Matt 5:43-44 )
jeus said “it is said” He didnt say “God said”. So Jesus maybe indirectly says that deuteronomy 21:10-14 : is not the word of God. It is superfluous to talk about the aberrant instruction to use a pleasant prisoner woman. n The word of God is
“love you enemie and persecutor”
Stone your stubborn son?
These verses of Deuteronomy 2:8-25 are also very questionable:
( 1 ) “If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.”
Sons should show respect to the parents but stubborness we know of today, may have other causes than being evil. Maybe the son has some trauma from bad experiences or simply, the parents are not behaving as good parents. A God should know this and that elders may not be able to judge in a correct way. I can not see these verses as dictated from God.
Stoning your daughter if front of your house?
This is what God commands according to the Bible:
( 1 ) “If, however, the charge is true (ed. the woman is fount not to be virgin) and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.” ( Deuteronomy+22:20-21 )
More can be read about this in https://carm.org/bible-difficulties/genesis-deuteronomy/stone-woman-not-being-virgin
How can you rpoove that a woman is virgin? Not all women loose blood after the first intercourse. God would have known that.
What Jesus said years later
“Read these verses of John 3:1-11
( 1 ) “As he was speaking, the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in the act of adultery. They put her in front of the crowd. “Teacher,” they said to Jesus, “this woman was caught in the act of adultery.5 The law of Moses says to stone her. What do you say?”
They were trying to trap him into saying something they could use against him, but Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his finger. They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and said, “All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!” Then he stooped down again and wrote in the dust.
When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman.10 Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you? “No, Lord,” she said. And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”
Jesus the one who has never sinned, did not condemn nor stone her even if he has clearly said “you shall not commit adultery” ( Matthew 5:27-28 )
This is in total agreement with the no judge law Jesus proclaimed:
We have to judge in todays society but have developed a system for that to minimize riscs for mistakes. And many countries are against death sentences. We must protect the visctims.
Whats about this part of 2 Kings 2:23-24
that tell about what young boys made to Elisha and what God made at his request:
“He went up from there to Beth?el. As he was going along the way, some young boys came out from the city and began to jeer at him, and they kept saying to him: “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!”
Finally he turned around and looked at them and cursed them in the name of Jehovah. Then two she-bears came out of the forest and tore 42 of the children to pieces“
Do you believe that God had this happen? Is this the truth? I am in doubt of that.
about thatPaul with his sentence contraddicted himself, the NT (Jesus himself) and OT (Psalms 68:11). He had a blasphemic moment distracted by stress or the sentence were added later by others in the Catholic church.
That God gives instructions on how humans should dress ( see verses in Cor 11:5-7 ) is like the Muslim God that in the Quran instructs about heritage amounts ( 4-Al-Nisa ). This seems to me, not to be a issue for a God to spend precious time with. Especcially not when the main message is love your next and enemie ( enemies that may be women challengeing you .
For me it seems obvious that some parts of the Bible are word of men and not of God, words of men who in part either
- erroneously translated their messenger
- or misinterpreted their messenger
- or overinterpreted what they heard adding their own fantasies to make their story more intresting or readable (like parts in the Genesis, (as using the word day instead of millenia and with “God rested the seventh day”)
There is also a hypothesis that Pauls “Women shall keep silent ” has been added after his death , maybe by the same people who argued that Pauls Junia was a man.
The same can be seen in the Quran were “fight” has been translated to kill in contradiction of Moses law “you shall not kill” a translation that led many youth to go to ISIS.
like the Catholic church does not accept women to be priests because of Pauls “Women should keep slilent.” and many women in Sicily have suffered as hey couldnt proove their virginity after the first mariage night, one has to read the Bible with a listening and thinking mind. Not to forget that several text were created 6000 years ago, transmitted orally and written down hundreds of years later, like the books of Moses.
That the Genesis said the Paradise was created down here on Earth (as the translations sound like) is one of my doubts. Even if geniously written, I think the Creation message in Genesis has been greatly simplified and misinterpreted downgrading God to a magician and artists. If Genesis really originated from God, then God shows great humility with this account of the Creation.
I prefer however the more mistical Muslim version where Paradise with Adam is created in Heaven (like Jesus was before everything) and Adam was sent down to Earth as a punishment for disobedience, incarnated in a human beings body, like I wrote about in my Unified creation theory.
(1) About texts from the Bible in this article. If you are reading Bible text in the English vesion and using the Google translate option, you must know that the Google translation may not be a approved translation. We recommend you to open the approved text in your choosen language here in Biblia or here in jw.org.